Monday, January 14, 2008

If you only read one article...

make this the one. Gregg Doyel is 100% right. I'm relieved that perhaps sanity will dominate the day.

If you have to read two, make this the second. It basically says the same thing. Aaron Schatz just gets it.


Anonymous said...


Truly great players find a way to win the game despite their teammates' subpar play. The game was there to be won... TWICE! And both times Manning came up empty. If Brady was the quarterback in that spot, it would have been a whole different story. No matter how many touchdown passes and passing yards Manning may throw in his career, he will ultimately be judged for what his body of work is in the playoffs, and to date his record speaks for itself: 7-7. In the playoffs, in the biggest moments of a playoff game when it counts the most, Manning can't hold a candle to Brady, and. like it or not, that's the God honest truth.


PatsRule said...

Yeah, 7-7 is not exactly something a supposedly elite quarterback should be proud of.

Deshawn Zombie said...

Apparently neither of you actually watched the game. All a QB can do is throw the passes. He can't make the recievers catch them.


JC said...

Well in that case, the receivers are a bunch of chumps too.

Deshawn Zombie said...

It would be hard to argue that after watching yesterday's game. Demond and I were talking about the Brady Effect and the Manning Effect. The Brady Effect is that everyone undervalues his teammates and ignores the help he gets. The Manning effect is that everyone (myself very much included) tends to inflate the players around him and then kill Manning when they fail. Dallas Clark is a very average tight end. He has bad hands. Reggie Wayne is a good wideout, but Manning has made him great. In our loss to Pittsburgh two years ago, Manning put the game winner on his hands and he couldn't make the tough catch. Yesterday, Manning threaded him a perfect throw, and he got hit and dropped it.

They certainly looked like chumps yesterday, there is no question.

Anonymous said...

Then Greg Garber is living breathing proof that there's an idiot born in this world every minute.


Deshawn Zombie said...

Seriously? We're gonna have to say this again? Quarterbacks are not soley responsible for winning and losing games. How is it that you all are so dense? Aaron Schatz (Patriots fan) summed it up correctly:

"Yet another Colts playoff loss where Peyton Manning played well and was doomed by weird tipped passes and drops by his receivers. Despite last year’s success, it is still a running theme."

If you all want to blame Manning for this, go ahead. It's your right to be morons. I was there. Manning was the best player on the field for either team by a wide margin. But then again maybe you're right. I suppose he could have gently set the ball into Kenton Keith hands using serving tongs! Nah, I think he still would have dropped it.

Go away until you have something real to say about the game. Something that indicates that you actually watched it.

PatriotsReign said...

No one's saying that Peyton Manning isn't a great QB. He is. But Pats fans are sick of hearing you guys claim he's better than Brady. Clearly he's not — his record and Brady's numbers prove it. Brady didn't have any elite receivers when he won three SBs, either.

JC said...

I don't think anyone UNDERvalued Reche Caldwell, Ben Watston, a 50 year old Troy Brown and Jabar Gaffney last year.

Those guys are what they are. 3's and 4's.

Yet with that ragtag group of people Brady came within a play of knocking off the substantially more talented (and home) Colts last year.

The only Brady Effect in that game was that he put the team on his shoulders and made everyone around him better than they were.

You just don't see Patriot fans talking about drops every year, or officiating.

"Man so and so dropped a perfect Brady pass. Brady played great by the team sucks. Blah blah blah."

We lost last year because PEYTON MANNING BEAT US. He was out of this world. Not because of drops by our wideouts (although that Caldwell drop was soooooo bad).

It just seems like the Colts choked yesterday. Not Manninng necessarily, but the Colts.

Anyhow - DZ's infatuation with humiliating our team, our fanbase, our quarterback and our head coach on our home field is done.

Your season is done.

Dungy's probably leaving and your run is done.

The '72 Dolphins are done.

And I, am far from done.

You guys ran your mouths SO MUCH the past six weeks that I'm going to pound on you every day I can.

Jacob Burch
Bob (Vila)
DZ and Demond
And everyone else that threw in their two cents on behalf of a team that in the grand scheme of things......hasn't done SHIT.

This is great.

I hope your lives go on hold and you fall into a giant black hole of depression like I did last January where the only thing that pulled me out was running through some college chickenhead. Then drinking some more.

Pitchers and Catchers in 5 weeks!

Anonymous said...

Manning... 7-7 playoff record, 1 Super Bowl win

Brady... 13-2 playoff record, 3 Super Bowl wins

Numbers don't lie.


PatriotsReign said...

Wow, that's pretty harsh JC.
And yes, we did watch the game.

Anonymous said...

Man, you Pats fans are sensitive. If the Colts are a team that's "done nothing," why do you care so much what a couple internet bloggers and fans have to say about your team?

Deshawn Zombie said...

First off, how did this become about Brady and Manning? The whole point of this was to say that the game yesterday was just about everyone's fault BUT Manning's (like several of the other playoff losses).

Z, numbers do lie. Manning didn't go 7-7. The COLTS went 7-7. Brady didn't go 13-2. The PATRIOTS went 13-2. How is that a hard concept? The Patriots have been a consisently superior team to Indy for several years now. Hence the better playoff record and more Super Bowls. That's the ONLY thing those numbers prove.

JC-keep talking, bro. I got no problem with you. You're an a-hole, but you're OUR a-hole. You've been here every day yapping for months, so you've certainly earned the right. But sorry, no depression here. After the Pitsburgh game, I was devestated. I was depressed for weeks. I thought we were the best team in the NFL even after that game. This time, I don't feel that way. This team wasn't going to win the Super Bowl without Freeney, so losing yesterday was about the same as losing to the Pats. Sorry, man. You can't bug me. Although, saying that a team that has won 5 division titles, 12 games every year, and a Super Bowl hasn't 'done shit' is moronic. That just makes you look bad.

Listen, when it comes to Brady/Manning let me be clear:
1. the 'greatness' issue is a cumulative one. Right now, there is no debate that Brady has had a more sucessful career for whatever reasons. Therefore he's 'greater' now. I don't think the issue will be settled until they retire. The Colts are still stacked, and could easy rip off the next two Super Bowls. The count would then be 4-3 (yeah, I'm conceeding this year).
2. If the issue is who is better, and who would I take with the first pick (not considering age), I'd still take Manning. I take Brady second. That's just me. Almost the entire roster failed to show yesterday. Manning did though. All by himself, he almost won that game. Anyone who says otherwise wasn't paying attention.

My point on the Brady/Manning effect isn't that one is better than the other, it's merely that perhaps the Pats receivers weren't nearly as bad as people thought. The Colts recievers certainly aren't as elite as people think. Is Dallas Clark really dramatically better than Ben Watson? I don't know; I really didn't pay enough attention to Ben Watson. I do pay attention to Dallas Clark, though, and every pass to him terrifies me.

JC said...

Sorry DZ I'm a little emotional.

It seriously blows you guys aren't coming up here next week.....that woulda been epic.

Anonymous said...

No DZ...

Which QB comes through more often than not in the clutch? And try to be unbiased on this one, OK? No way in a million years Pats would have gone 13-2 with Matt Cassell, Vinny Testaverde, Doug Flutie, Drew Bledsoe, or any other QB you could have plugged in there. If you go strictly by career stats, how would you rate Dan Marino? Fran Tarkenton? Vinny Testaverde? Drew Bledsoe? Steve DeBerg? David Krieg? All in the top 20 all-time quarterback list for stats... all with one thing in common... NO SUPER BOWL WINS! Playing in the clutch, not having happy feet, not throwing the big interception, and putting the weight of the entire team on your back when things aren't going exactly how you want it... these are the qualities of an all-time great quarterback. It's not about throwing for 5,000 yard in the regular season every season only to be one and done in the playoffs. Peyton took his team to the mountaintop once... Brady's done it THREE times. With the likes of Troy Brown, David Patten, Deion Branch, Jermaine Wiggins, David Givens, Daniel Graham, Benjamin Watson... more or less pedestrian #3 and #4 receivers... and consistantly doing it. THAT speaks volumes!


Deshawn Zombie said...

I'd say that coming through in the 'clutch' is rolling away from pressure on a huge 4th and 5, lofting a perfect ball over two defenders and into the hands of your tight end.

I'd say coming through in the clutch in putting your team in field goal range to win a big game in Miami.

I'd say coming through in the clutch waiving your punt team off the field and converting a huge fourth down in the 3rd quarter, putting your team in FG range at the end of the game, and hitting your WR in the hands in the endzone from 30 yards out.

The Colts lost all those games. But not because Manning didn't 'come through' in the clutch.

Anonymous said...

Brady is the most over-rated athlete in the history of professional sports. He's not one bit better than Kurt Warner.

Give any decent NFL QB the kind of protection that Brady has enjoyed his entire career and he would put put the numbers Brady has put up.

Anyone who has ever broken down game film to evaluate pass pro and open receivers knows this.

Brady is not all that accurate and rarely is able to stick the tough pass when under serious pressure. He's really good at dumpoffs to wide open receivers when he has all day, except he throws an unusual number of these easy throws off target.

When you know something about football, come back. With the retarded rants you Pats fans put up, you only make yourselves look stupid.

Anonymous said...

Is there a link to the last 4th down play where Dallas Clark did not catch the ball? I watched it on TV and it looked like the ball was slightly touched by the defender and thus its trajectory was off which caused Clark to drop it.

I did not think the ball was very catchable, but since others seem to think otherwise I want to watch it again to verify what I saw.

Deshawn Zombie said...

I watched it about 5 times, and it didn't look tipped. It's not on line yet either. It looked like he reached up too high, if that makes sense. It came down right over into his palm and glanced off. It hit more than his outstretched finger tips. It was a tough catch maybe, but certainly not an extraordinary one, and one that an NFL TE has to make. The pass was sort of amazing as Manning had a guy in his face, so he lofted it up over him and dropped it in just beyond the defender.

PatsRules said...

"Brady is not all that accurate and rarely is able to stick the tough pass when under serious pressure."
This is the funniest thing I've read in quite a while. Brady just said the NFL single-game record for best pass completion percentage, ya moron, and his greatness in the clutch cannot be denied.

colts girl said...

This is just something I've been thinking about that no one else has mentioned in this context:

Pats fans keep saying that the Colts choke in the important situations, and to some degree, I think that is true. I don't think it's Manning's fault for reasons listed more elaborately above, but there's one other thing that sticks in my craw. Any time any team in any sport gets into the situation where people say, "that's the team that choked/chokes in the playoffs/finals," it puts tremendous pressure on the players not to be that team this time. I know that these guys are professional athletes, and they are not supposed to bend under that pressure, but when you have that going and then you have that quicksand effect of one or two bad plays/calls/penalties, it's really hard to recover from that. I don't see Manning folding under that pressure as much, but the players around him often seem to be acutely aware of it. Maybe that's just blowing smoke, but it's a natural response to focus on what could go wrong, and doing so takes the focus off of doing the job. If that is what's going on, I don't want to use it as an excuse or anything; it shouldn't affect the play, but the reality is that it can and probably does.

And Dallas Clark makes me nervous. I do hope he's gone next year. I know "they" say he won't be, but he's had the dropsies all season, and in seasons in the past. Especially when it counts. I think he's a liability, and I think he proved it once again yesterday. Of course, a lot of players on our team were liabilities yesterday. Dallas just stands out to me because I pretty much always think of him that way.

But hey, I'm a Cubs fan, too, so I am totally adept at repeating the phrase, "there's always next year." And there is. And I know I'll love it; I'll be here bashing the F-Pats and glorifying the Colts, and it'll be great. Even if we went 5-12 (which we won't). It will still be great. 'Cause they're my team, and I love 'em.

Sorry for the long, disjointed post. Just calling it as I see/think it.

Deshawn Zombie said...

this comment is unrelated to Tom Brady in specific...

It would be interesting to see if 'greatness in the clutch' actually does exist in football. They've done studies on it in baseball which have yielded mix results which sort of indicate that 'clutchness' isn't a real thing as much as a percieved one. I suspect that becuase sample sizes are so small thought, it would be hard accurately measure. Football is such a variable game as well. A clutch drive in the 4th quarter may mean a FG, a TD, or just a couple of first downs to run out the clock, so I'm not sure you could even measure it accurately.

The real question with Brady isn't is 'great in the clutch', but rather is he better or at least the same as he is in other times during the game. There is always anecodotal evidence of course, but it would be interesting see stats. Again though, that's difficult to quantify because defenses vary in quality so much. Manning was killed by some in the media last year for his playoff stats, but at the same time QBed the first team to ever beat the 1, 2, and 3 ranked defenses in the same post season. Naturally, one's stats won't be as good against great defenses, but that doesn't mean a QB isn't clutch. In other words you'd can't say a great TD drive to beat a bad D is somehow greater than a 40 yard drive to kick a FG against a great D.

I suppose our memories and impressions are all we are ever going to have to go on in this area.

Anonymous said...

If you guys don't want Dallas Clark, he can play for my team ANYTIME! But I heard on Sirius Radio that Bill Polian's going to use the franchise tag on Clark. You could always use your first round pick on a tight end out of college, though.

And not to say Brady's never choked, cause he choked last year against you guys and also against Champ Bailey and the Broncos the year before. But for my money, I'd still rather have Brady in the clutch... only my opinion.


Bob M. said...

Please stop anonymous posting--my main beef is it's insane to respond to "anon #1" and "Anon #2". Too complicated.

Any fans, not just Pats/Bosox fans (who are the most egregious examples this decade, but I lived among some insufferable Mets/Giants fans in 1986 in NY), but ANY fans who thump their chests and have to rub their victory in the fresh wounds of the losers, and who obsess on the loserness of the losers even though it has nothing to do with their team, exhibit serious psychological problems. Probably inferiority complexes. It's sad, really. And it's not enough for them to win, they must win AND be the best ever, or superior both on the field and in some sort of moral plane.

Also, people who bark about how tough and clutch their team is and what pussies the other guys are are very likely the very ones who have never strapped on gear and entered combat, controlled, like football, or otherwise. Anyone who has taken and given a shot in the eye, a knee in the groin, knocked someone out and been knocked out is far less likely to pontificate on the shortcomings of others. And those who go on and on about it are poseurs who have to live vicariously because, in their unconscious minds, they haven't lived their own lives. Like I said, they deserve out pity.

And regarding numbers not lying, you should really go back to school; any level, really. Here's an example from Finance 101: Investment A returns $1M in Year One but investment B returns $1.5M in Year One. Which is better? Those are the numbers, what's your answer? Oh, some more numbers: "A" is a startup about to be bought by Google and the $1M return was on an investment of $100K, whereas "B" is a tobacco company about to be bled to death by law suits. And your investment to get that $1.5M was $10M. Hey, a 15% rtn is not exactly bad, but.... Now which is better? Moral of the story, if you have read this far, is that context and back-story are everything. In a team sport like football, I'd say that evaluating an individual also requires an objective analysis of the collective, including staff and game plan. In the end, it's about impossible to pull an individual's qualities out of the team.

With one possible exception: Randy Moss has been integral, caught about 50% of the aerial TDs in the two highest scoring NFL seasons ever. He made a good Culpepper look great and he made a good Brady look great. Now their performance cannot be extracted from the game plans and the performances of their OL, but Moss has a history of bringing out QB's finest seasons: Jeff George, Randall Cunningham, C-Pepp, and now Brady. Those guys have never made any particular receiver into an HOFer, like he has in reverse. See, if you're smart enough, you can make numbers say anything. Whether you believe them or not.

JC said...

Bob that post was desperate.

That's what you do. You attack the fans of winners for their pride. You say it's "sad" and that we have "psychological issues".

Why? For forcing you guys to eat crow for all the shit you talked when it "all came crashing down"? That phrase sound familiar? I'm pretty sure you used it.

Then to follow it up with a makeshift Macro Lesson - that was WICKED cool.

Manning is great. So is Tom. Tom has won more. What's the reason for that? We'll never know. But to quote the Tuna - the numbers are the numbers no matter how they got that way.

Jacob Burch said...

i'm going to stick up for #44 and say his better than average ability to find holes in the middle coverage make him a great asset to the team, and that while he has dropped balls in the past (no more than any other receiver i've ever seen outside of top ten WRs), a majority of his drops came after his concussion against tampa bay this year.

the dude was far too important in last year's playoffs to just randomly hope he goes next year--remembering our next best hope is fumbly ben U.

coltsfanawalt said...

JC, all the smack we talked that you want us to eat, we did it on our team website. We are a bunch of homers, just like you. However, we didn't come in your living room and talk smack in your face. There is a difference. We just want to believe amongst our faithful Colts amigos that we are the best, that no one else is close, and that we will win. Pardon our loyalties, expressed in our house.

Also, all the talk was fun and games before the fact. It will probably be that way again down the road, as we get psyched for a new season. Right now, the wound is fresh. I don't understand why you can't see the wisdom of timing. You have been good to banter with at times before, but this is a time to have some temporary tact, perhaps.

In good will I'd avoid coming to your house after you lost (doesn't happen often to you, does it? Argh!) and rubbing salt in the wound over comments you made earlier on your own turf and in your zeal. I'm not trying to be your conscience. Honestly, I like it that you hang with us. But give everyone a break at this time as they vent on a Colts blog. It stinks, but we'll live. One day, we'll be ready to discuss next season.

Deshawn Zombie said...

I understand sticking up for him. He was huge in the playoffs last year. Demond named his son after him. That being said, he led the league in dropped passes. His numbers don't warrent paying him the average of the top 6 TEs in football. He's no more than the 4th best TE in the AFC (Gonzlaez, Gates, Winslow off the top of my head). I think that if they do franchise him for one year, it's ok. But I don't favor giving him a long term deal. We all love TEs (Dilger and Pollard are Classic Colts), but we tend to inflate their value to an offense. Especially when they drop lots of first down passes.

JC said...

What's tact?

Deshawn Zombie said...


Anonymous said...

For serious insanity, check this --

The reason that Kenton Keith bounced the pass off his hands near the goal line was that Peyton was rusty.

Par for the course when it comes to a media Peyton-hater. He kind of tips his hand with this one: "Even though Peyton Manning wouldn't be caught dead poolside during the playoffs — unless the commercial shoot called for it — the Colts met the same fate as the Cowboys on Sunday."

Their hatred makes them insane. Their stupidity comes naturally.


Deshawn Zombie said...

I had read it. It was retarded.

Dave H said...

Yeah, why does the media always have to focus SOOOO much on the QB?

1) The Colts were calling too many crappy middle screens all game. A couple worked, but this is not their strength.

2) Keith just blantantly dropped that pass.

3) Weddle made a great one-handed catch, with an O-lineman all over him.

How is ANY of this Peyton Manning's fault? Stupid national media.